What did Saint Paul have to say about the Arsenokoitai? Quite a bit actually...
Romans 1:26-27
New International Version
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In
the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were
inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
New Revised Standard Version.
Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male
prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none
of these will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:8-11
...we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
understanding this, that the Law is not laid down for the just but for the
lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and
profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the
sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality [arsenokoitai], enslavers,
liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in
accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have
been entrusted.
Even judged as bollocks this is bollocks. There is no evidence whatsoever as to the etymology and meaning of the word arsenokoitai, not least because St Paul seems to have coined the word himself. At any rate, thanks to Shylo Rosborough, Affirming Ministries Co-ordinator of Robertson Wesley Church, for this scholarly summation.
ReplyDeleteArsenokoitai [Part one]
This one word has doomed generations of LGBTQIA2S+ Christians to persecution and shame, and yet you’ve probably never even heard it, so what exactly is this word? Well, the short answer is… it’s complicated. This word has long been the base of homophobia within the Church due to its poor translation. Biblical literalist and conservative Christians often translate this ancient Greek word to mean “homosexual” in English, which solidifies their belief that God condemns same-gender relationships. Arsenokoitai is used only twice in the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Arsenokoitai (ἀρσενοκοίτης ) is an ancient Greek word that the Apostle Paul created and used in his letters, this also means that there are no other uses of the word in the Bible or other cultural texts of the time. This makes finding out the true meaning of the word next to impossible. Especially since translators use other outside texts, examples and context to learn what ancient languages are trying to say.
If it is impossible to translate this word, why do people think it means homosexual? Well, the only hint we have in deciphering the meaning of this word is that it is a compound word. Compound words are formed when two or more words are put together to form a new word with a new meaning. A good example of this is the word “butterfly,” without context, we would not think of a beautiful insect, but rather we would think of a fly made from butter. This combination changes the meaning, and may not relate to the two words that it is made from. The two words
that are put together in this case, are “arsén” which means male and “koité” which means bed. A direct reading would be “male-bed”. Some have understood Paul to have created this word by
translating, to Greek, the verse from Leviticus 20:13 “males who lie with males.” Due to its unclear definition, English translators struggled with representing the concept of arsenokoitai.
Some examples in the early 16-20th century stated that Arsenokoitai meant “Liers with mankind”, “Sodomites”, “Abusers of themselves with mankind” and “those who abuse themselves with men.” This suggested that Arsenokoitai did not represent what we know as sexual orientation, but rather the roles in which sexual acts were committed. The closest meaning of Arsenokoitai with the very little knowledge we have is “men who took active roles in non-procreative sex”. This understanding shifted in the 1940s when translations, such as the Revised Standard Version, began translating Arsenokoitai to mean “homosexual.” Some of the newer translations we see today translate Arsenokoitai to mean “pervert”, “sexual pervert”, “sodomite”, “homosexual” and “those who practice homosexuality” This shifted the concept of Arsenokoitai from being simply a role that was played to being someone’s intrinsic identity.
Arsenokoitai [Part Two]
ReplyDeleteSo what is the most accurate translation? Well, with all of the information we know regarding Paul, the context of where he was writing, who he was talking to, and what he was referencing, our best-educated guess is that it means some kind of sexual/economic exploitation. The Greek words “arsen” and “koiten” were used to describe events 1,600 years before Paul and those events always related to some form of pedophilia or abuse. In Biblical times, same-sex behaviour was primarily perceived as happening between adult men and adolescent boys (masters and servants), via prostitution, and by men who were already married to women. This means Paul was condemning the use of power for abusive purposes, any and all excess lust, and prostitution. From this we can infer that the concept of Arenokoitai is sexual and economic exploitation, and thus there is no way we can relate these verses to the committed, loving, consensual same-gender relationships we see today. The history of this word is complicated, but now it is time to undo history and correct the narrative."
Shylo Rosborough (He/Him)
Affirming Ministries Coordinator
And by the way, Gene, where IN THE TEXT of Galatians 3:28 does St Paul specifically exclude homosexuals from the Kingdon of God? If all are one in Christ Jesus, how that exclude anyone?
I ask this because your categorisation of homosexuality as a sin is more nonsense, given that sexuality is something people are born with - ie, it is God-given. It follows the expressing that God given nature in action cannot be sinful provided that no coercion, exploitation of victimisation takes place.
Yet another humiliating fail for Gene, the Donald Trump of theology.
Oh, yes, nearly forgot: when is Granny Barkes fell in Woolworths being published?
'homosexuality is not a sin' Nobody says it is. And of course you know this. The sin is not homosexual orientation but sin of homosexual activity - such as the shameful sin of sodomy.
ReplyDeleteSaint Paul nowhere in Galatians states that homosexuals are excluded. I have said this ad infinitum. Just read back through these threads.
But, as your Church, the C of E teaches, homosexual acts are incompatible with the Scriptures. Unrepentant and active sodomites will never be admitted to the Kingdom Of God.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT SOMEONE WHO IS AN UNREPENTANT MURDERER, THIEF OR SODOMITE SHOULD NEVERTHELESS BE ADMITTED TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
"It follows the expressing that God given nature in action cannot be sinful provided that no coercion, exploitation of victimisation takes place."
ReplyDeleteOnly someone illiterate in Theology could write this. What you put forward is the heresy of Pelagianism,
"Saint Paul nowhere in Galatians states that homosexuals are excluded. I have said this ad infinitum. Just read back through these threads."
ReplyDeleteYou haven't, Gene, and you are shifting your viewpoint. You have banged on for YEARS about homosexuality being "intrinsically moral disordered" and now you have the crust to say that it is not a sin. Lying bastard.
And it is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile the statement that "all are one in Christ Jesus" with exclusion of any sort for any reason.
As for who is excluded from the Kingdom of God, who the fuck are you to lay down the law? If homosexuality is God given, how can expressing that sexuality consensually be sinful.
For a man who prides himself on being a Scripture scholar you don't half talk crap.
By the way, when is Granny Barkes fell in Woolworths being published?
ReplyDeleteARE YOU SAYING THAT SOMEONE WHO IS AN UNREPENTANT MURDERER, THIEF OR SODOMITE SHOULD NEVERTHELESS BE ADMITTED TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
ReplyDeleteA fucking silly question - "when did you stop beating your wife?"
I do not know who will be admitted to the Kingdom of God, any more than you do, because neither am I God nor, unlike you, you blasphemously arrogant arsehole, do I presume to read Her mind.
One thing I do know: if they let a lying, hypocritical, nasty, thieving, groping, peeping tom bastard like you in, then EVERYONE must be in with a chance.
"You have banged on for YEARS about homosexuality being "intrinsically moral disordered" and now you have the crust to say that it is not a sin"
ReplyDeleteYou still don't get it do you? The homosexual person does not sin - unless he or she engages in homosexual activity. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And pay attention how the Catholic Church calls for care and respect for the homosexual person. I have said this all along. Just check back.
What you are saying is that sodomy and other homosexual acts are not sinful. You won't get many to agree with you - not even your own church, the C of E.
"If homosexuality is God given, how can expressing that sexuality consensually be sinful."
ReplyDeleteOnly a theological ignoramus could say this!
Answer the question, Gene. Otherwise you will look like somebody who mistakes insult for argument.
Delete"If homosexuality is God given, how can expressing that sexuality consensually be sinful."
DeleteIT IS QUITE ASTONISHING YOU COULD ASK THIS.
This is the heresy of Pelagianism.
Detterling I'm not sure whether this basic theological error is a result of your failing intellect or whether you were always ignorant in theological matters.
Explain how my statement exempliffies the Pelagian heresy.
DeleteNo, thought not.
And explain how citing a fifteen hundred year old philosophical error affects your total inabiity to answer my question.
No, thought not.
"your categorisation of homosexuality as a sin is more nonsense, given that sexuality is something people are born with - ie, it is God-given. It follows the expressing that God given nature in action cannot be sinful"
DeleteThis is pure Pelagianism.
Pelagianism denied original sin and contended falsely that if something existed in nature it must be good and to engage in, say, homosexual activity was not sinful.
Total bollocks.
Saint Augustine blew this heresy out of the water.
If you are saying that the doctrine of original sin is bollocks, then I could not but agree with you. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ to suggest anything of the sort, and as a doctrine it did not even emerge until the 5th century.
DeleteYour theology is as flawed, inept and blasphemously stupid as your literary ability.
Which reminds me: when IS Granny Barkes pissed herself in Harris and Hoole going to be published?
And your theology is totally absent. Anyone who can write this has no grasp of any theology:
Delete"your categorisation of homosexuality as a sin is more nonsense, given that sexuality is something people are born with - ie, it is God-given. It follows the expressing that God given nature in action cannot be sinful"
Total Pelagianism. Total bollocks.
No, Gene. It is the doctrine of original sin which is total bollocks - something your church tacitly acknowledged years ago when the idea of a limbo for unbaptised souls was quietly dropped. I have no problem with your believing in it - it’s a free country. But your stupendous arrogance in calling any belief dissenting from yours heretical bollocks simply makes you look like a self important and pig ignorant clown.
DeleteI have multiple examples of your “care and respect” for homosexuals. Like calling them shirtlifters, pouffes, Nancy boys, - for Christs sake stop this posturing, it turns my stomach.
ReplyDelete