Saturday, 25 May 2024

 

Does Jesus see homosexual behaviour as sinful? 

 

Now and again I come across people saying or writing that Jesus did not speak out against homosexuality and therefore must have approved it.[1] He was loving and tolerant. 

I saw one person state confidently on Twitter the other week that she had a Masters in New Testament Studies and had studied all four Gospels closely and nowhere does Jesus condemn homosexuality (or abortion for that matter).

My sister posted an article in our family WhatsApp showing how in Australia any church that says homosexual activity is sinful are seen as ‘hardline’ – why can’t they be like other churches that have moved with the times and see how outdated the church’s teaching is?

The subtext: Why can’t they be more like Jesus? Why can’t the church change with the times?

This argument that ‘Jesus never condemns homosexuality, therefore must have condoned it’ frustrates me and fails on many levels.

First: The argument fails on canonical grounds:

If you are going to critique Christianity then you have to do so on historical Christianity’s terms not yours. And creating a dichotomy between Jesus’ teaching and the rest of the Bible is to mistreat Jesus and the Bible.

Christians for two thousand years have believed the whole Bible is the Word of God and has authority. Yes, we must read it within the three horizons of its immediate context, covenantal context and canonical context. But we can’t and we don’t (as Christians) elevate Jesus’ words over the rest of the Bible, especially the rest of the New Testament.

We don’t create a mini canon within the wider canon of Scripture. We’re not red-letter Christians who only believe Jesus’ words. Paul and the disciples were writing as disciples and followers of Jesus. And Paul clearly states sex between a man and a man, and between a woman and woman is a sin (see Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10).[2] Therefore, to make Jesus and the Gospels the sole arbiter of this debate is lazy and misguided.

Second: The argument fails because of bad historical methodology:

It is a historical fallacy to make a positive argument from silence, especially when the historical setting speaks negatively against this.

To say Jesus condoned homosexual practice because he didn’t condemn it is not how historians study history. We don’t base our arguments from silence, especially when we know what the wider culture believed – to do so is simply to apply a faulty method of historical reasoning to your historical argument.[3]

The end result: your argument is deeply flawed. In addition, too often today we take our present-day ideals and try to impose them on different historical cultures. You can’t read history like that and hope to be a good historian.

Third: The argument fails on historical grounds:

People fail to put Jesus in his historical context. He was a Jew living in Palestine, living under the authority of the Torah. It would have been inconceivable for a popular Jewish Rabbi to have condoned such practices, especially one who said to enter the Kingdom of God you have to be more righteous than the Pharisees (Matt 5:20).

That is not the kind of teaching that condones homosexual behaviour. He likely didn’t discuss it directly because as a Jew living in Jewish Palestine teaching Jewish people, the Law was clear on this (see for example Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) and it was largely a non-issue. It only later became an issue when the Gospel was preached to the Romans and Greeks, where such practices were deemed acceptable in most cases.[4]

Fourth: The argument fails on theological grounds:

Christians believe that Jesus is our sinless Saviour and lived a sinless life (2 Cor. 5:21). We believe he obeyed and fulfilled the Mosaic Law as the perfect Israelite (Rom. 8:3-4). He said himself he did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets (i.e. the whole of the Old Testament) but to fulfil it as the One it was pointing to (Matt 5:17).

If he had condoned homosexual behaviour, he could not have perfectly kept the Torah, since the Torah clearly states homosexual practice is a sin (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13). If you break the Torah, even one command, then you are a sinner under God’s curse (Gal. 3:10).

In fact, Jesus himself said to the Pharisees, who were looking for any reason to arrest him and kill him, “Who among you can convict me of sin?” (John 8:46 CSB). All they could do in response was to call him names, but they couldn’t point out in what way he was sinning, certainly not on moral grounds. There’s no conceivable way the Pharisees would have allowed Jesus to get away with such teaching. To them it was sinful and everything we know about the zeal of the Pharisees for God’s Torah tells us they would have called him out on it.

Fifth: The argument fails on Biblical grounds:

Despite the fact Jesus did not directly condemn homosexual practice, his hearers would have understood he included it in his teaching on sexual sin.

For example, when Jesus says in Mark 7:21-23 (CSB): “For from within, out of people’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, evil actions, deceit, self-indulgence, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person”, his hearers would have understood homosexual practice to be implied from that list.

This is because of the word ‘sexual immoralities’ which is from the Greek word Porneia. The fact that Jesus speaks of ‘sexual immoralities’ and ‘adulteries’ shows us Jesus is speaking of more than just unfaithfulness in marriage. He used it as a term to convey all sexual sin outside of marriage.

As well as this broad meaning, historically the earliest Christians saw it used particularly to speak out against prostitution and homosexual practice in what was the first sexual revolution.[5]

Jesus was clear on what marriage is in Matthew 19 when quoting Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 when he said, ‘“Haven’t you read”, he replied, “that he who created them in the beginning made them male and female, and he also said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate”’ (Matthew 19:4-6 CSB).

He clearly grounds marriage between male and female and then says that the alternatives are: some people were born eunuchs, others made eunuchs, and yet still others choose to live like eunuchs (i.e. not having sex) for the sake of the kingdom of God (Matt 19:11-12). There are two choices for Christians when it comes to sex, either sex within marriage between a male or female (becoming one flesh), or celibacy. There’s no third way. As difficult and as painful as this is for some and as much as we should seek to speak truth in love, we cannot allow our feelings and experiences overrule the Bible and create an alternative or modern solution within the church. For Jesus says: ‘what God has joined together, let no man separate’ – these are apposite words for those who try to make Jesus fit their pro-homosexual worldview. 


[1] Some Christians don’t see a distinction between homosexual behaviour and homosexual inclination or orientation – that the whole person is sinful and needs to repent of his/her temptations and inclinations. But I am persuaded of the fact that the Fall has broken us all sexually and so clearly homosexual inclination is a result of the bigger picture of sin and yet choosing not to follow your inclination is not sinful but faithful, because it seeks to say no to temptation and sexual desire. The emphasis of this article is on homosexual behaviour as sinful and yet is encouraged to be seen as acceptable within the church. For more on this read Sam Allberry’s Is God Anti-Gay? He writes: ‘We should expect a number of Christians to experience forms of same-sex attraction. We live in a fallen world…Being Christian makes us no less likely to fall ill, face tragedy, or experience insecurity. It is not un-Christian to experience same-sex attraction any more than it is un-Christian to get sick. What marks us out as Christian is not that we never experience such things, but how we respond to them when we do’, p. 41.

[2] 1 Timothy 1:10 also speaks against an argument that goes like this – Christianity once believed slavery was okay and not sinful and changed its mind on that, so why not homosexuality? Well, 1 Timothy 1:10 includes ‘practicing homosexuality’ with ‘slaver traders’ as unlawful and sinful. What is more, Paul constantly undermines slavery at various times. Whether it’s asking Philemon to accept his former slave Onesimus back not as a slave but as a ‘dear brother’ (Philemon 1:15-16), or when Paul says ‘slave or free’ we’re all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11), Paul is radically changing the way slaves are to be treated and recognised. Or when Paul says if you can earn your freedom then do it (1 Cor. 7:21-23). Even though Paul doesn’t say flee your masters but obey them (Eph. 6:5; Col. 3:22) and Peter says honour them even when they are cruel (1 Peter 2:18), (which in itself was subversive and revolutionary), this kind of subversion to slavery soon led later Christian thinkers to see slavery and having slaves as utterly repulsive – which was a revolutionary thought in the ancient world. For example, John Chrysostom described slavery as ‘the fruit of covetousness, of degradation, of savagery… the fruit of sin, [and] of [human] rebellion against … our true Father’. Homilies on Ephesians, Homily XXII. The point is, that early Christian teaching on slavery saw it as sinful, not okay.  And they saw it as sinful because they saw it as sinful in the Bible.

[3] We also know that the Gospels did not record everything Jesus taught or did (John 20:30 and 21:25). Like all history, the Gospels are edited. This should make us pause before categorically stating Jesus must have condoned homosexual behaviour.

[4] See William Loader, The New Testament on Sexuality, pp. 83-91 and Kyle Harper, From Shame to Sin: The Christian Transformation of Sexual Morality in Late Antiquity, pp.35-37. Harper even discusses evidence of same-sex marriages between men, and between women, dispelling the myth that the Greco-Roman world did not have the categories of romantic homosexual love.

[5] See Kyle Harper, From Shame to Sin.

 

20 comments:

  1. Posting yards of fundamentalist bullshit proves nothing Gene. Anybody who believes that the entire bible is the inerrant word of God is too stupid to be worth bothering with. You’ll be telling us that God made the world is six days next

    When will you realise that the moment when you break off an argument, Google the topic and then post what you hope backs up your case (although you quite evidently didn’t bother to read this fundamentalist horseshit) is the moment that signals yet another stinging humiliation for Gene “Fetherlite” Vincent, the Durex Fellow in Theology at the University of Steeple Bumstead.

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  2. "Anybody who believes that the entire bible is the inerrant word of God is too stupid to be worth bothering with."

    No one has said that on this forum you arrogant so-and-so.

    "There are two choices for Christians when it comes to sex, either sex within marriage between a male or female (becoming one flesh), or celibacy. There’s no third way. As difficult and as painful as this is for some and as much as we should seek to speak truth in love, we cannot allow our feelings and experiences overrule the Bible and create an alternative or modern solution within the church. For Jesus says: ‘what God has joined together, let no man separate’ – these are apposite words for those who try to make Jesus fit their pro-homosexual worldview. "

    Think about it Detterling.

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    1. I KNEW you hadn't bothered to read the article, you idle, stupid bastard.

      "Christians for two thousand years have believed the whole Bible is the Word of God and has authority. Yes, we must read it within the three horizons of its immediate context, covenantal context and canonical context."

      Which is the worst kind of "pick and mix" scholarship. In effect it says that the Bible is the Word of God except when we decide that it isn't.

      Lazy, self-serving bullshit. You really should read your own posts, Gene.

      And as for this

      "For Jesus says: ‘what God has joined together, let no man separate’ – these are apposite words for those who try to make Jesus fit their pro-homosexual worldview. "

      What utter crap. These words of Christ are about heterosexual marriage - a marriage such as your first marriage, which according to the word of God still exists.
      The bogus nonsense of annulment was devised by man, not God - and not even the pope can separate married people, according to you.

      As mad as a box of frogs.

      Delete
  3. "As mad as a box of frogs."

    You certainly are.

    And no one has said in the article published above that the entire bible is the inerrant word of God. Indeed qualifications are presented on how we should read the bible. I knew you hadn't read it.

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    1. Bollocks:

      "Christians for two thousand years have believed the whole Bible is the Word of God and has authority."

      "Indeed qualifications are presented on how we should read the bible."

      So that bigots like you can make outrageously preposterous claims about what Christ said about anal sexual intercourse and homosexuality - which was precisely nothing.

      Delete
  4. "1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    New International Version

    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    'Men who have sex with men.' Got that Detterling?

    Methinks the New International Version translation is the most accurate of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

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    1. St Paul's strictures about sex - which reflect his own repressed sexuality - have no authority from the gospels.

      Or, if they do, they apply to your adulterous second marriage - for what God hath joined, no man can put asunder, not even the Holy Father himself.

      Got that, bigoted bellend?

      Delete

  5. "For Jesus says: ‘what God has joined together, let no man separate’ – these are apposite words for those who try to make Jesus fit their pro-homosexual worldview. "

    What utter crap. These words of Christ are about heterosexual marriage - a marriage such as your first marriage, which according to the word of God still exists.

    The bogus nonsense of annulment was devised by man, not God - and not even the pope can separate married people, according to you.

    As mad as a box of frogs - and I notice you have nothing to say about your own [still existing] first marriage and your subsequent adulterous "marriage" [sic] to "Marianne", your years of fornication with her and the fathering of three illegitimate children, you hypocritical weasel.

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  6. "1 Timothy 1:10
    New International Version
    10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."

    Take note Detterling.

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    1. St Paul's strictures about sex - which reflect his own repressed sexuality - have NO authority from the gospels.

      Or, if they do, they apply to your adulterous second marriage - for what God hath joined, no man can put asunder, not even the Holy Father himself.

      Got that, bigoted bellend?

      Delete
  7. Another humiliating fail, Gene: I told you that there is no Gospel teaching about homosexuality nor its physical expression, and we now see the result - trawling through the epistles of St Paul - whose teaching was very much his own rather than Christ-based, as the article I posted the other day proves beyond doubt]. Such quotations as the above have no provenance whatsoever in the teachings of Christ in the Gospel.

    And as for the "scholarly" article above, it is a disgrace to academic discourse.

    "I saw one person state confidently on Twitter the other week that she had a Masters in New Testament Studies and had studied all four Gospels closely and nowhere does Jesus condemn homosexuality."

    Perfectly true. and so what?

    "Christians for two thousand years have believed the whole Bible is the Word of God and has authority. Yes, we must read it within the three horizons of its immediate context, covenantal context and canonical context. But we can’t and we don’t (as Christians) elevate Jesus’ words over the rest of the Bible, especially the rest of the New Testament."

    "We can't and we don't..." - for whom, and on what authority is this presumptuous fart pronouncing this belief?

    "To say Jesus condoned homosexual practice because he didn’t condemn it is not how historians study history."

    Er...the Gospels are not historical documents - they mix history, polemic, metaphorical fiction, allegory, poetic fiction and pure invention.

    "It would have been inconceivable for a popular Jewish Rabbi to have condoned such practices, especially one who said to enter the Kingdom of God you have to be more righteous than the Pharisees."

    Jesus was not a rabbi, although he is often identified as someone who taught with authority. And being more righteous than the Pharisees was a pretty low bar to see - bigoted self-righteousness like Gene Fetherlite Vincent's was more their hammer.

    "There are two choices for Christians when it comes to sex, either sex within marriage between a male or female (becoming one flesh), or celibacy. There’s no third way."

    Nonsense - that is purely a matter of opinion.

    "For example, when Jesus says in Mark 7:21-23 (CSB): “For from within, out of people’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, evil actions, deceit, self-indulgence, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person”, his hearers would have understood homosexual practice to be implied from that list.
    This is because of the word ‘sexual immoralities’ which is from the Greek word Porneia. The fact that Jesus speaks of ‘sexual immoralities’ and ‘adulteries’ shows us Jesus is speaking of more than just unfaithfulness in marriage. He used it as a term to convey all sexual sin outside of marriage."

    Disgraceful, question-begging casuistry: dear GOD: "his hearers would have understood homosexual practice to be implied from that list..." - would have understood? a totally unpardonable assumption, let alone that the word porneia is translated from the Aramaic zanayeh, which connotes prostitution.

    In fact the only unquestionably correct statement in the entire farrago is relegated to the footnotes, where the author presumably hopes we won't notice that he has completely invalidated his whole argument:

    We also know that the Gospels did not record everything Jesus taught or did (John 20:30 and 21:25). Like all history, the Gospels are edited. This should make us pause before categorically stating Jesus must have condoned homosexual behaviour...

    ...and, by corollary, that he must have condemned it.

    FAIL, GENE, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

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  8. I am at a party celebrating a First Communion. A lot of Chianti has flowed over the aquaduct since the party began and I am not in the mood for discussions. Will return tomorrow.

    GENE

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    1. Don’t waste your breath, Gene. You are completely humiliated again.

      Delete
  9. The humiliation is yours in every sense. A man who would claim that we do not know what the view of Jesus would be on the depraved sin of sodomy! You have been beaten out of sight. We haven't seen you cite any theological authority to support your degenerate views. Now I wonder why?

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  10. No, Gene, simple rebuttal hasn’t worked for you in any of your recent humiliations and it won’t work now. And of course you have completely failed to address my refutation of the quasi scholarly bullshit you posted yesterday. And I have cited no theological arguments for my point of view because I need none:

    Christ made no pronouncements on human sexuality in the Gospels, and St Paul’s strictures on the subject have no provenance of any kind. You don’t need theology to see what is in front of your nose.

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  11. "And I have cited no theological arguments for my point of view because I need none"

    Ha! Ha! Ha! You have cited none because there are none. Quote me a leading Theologian who would claim that because Jesus did not mention sodomy in the gospels we do not know what his views on the subject would be.

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  12. No, Gene, simple rebuttal hasn’t worked for you in any of your recent humiliations and it won’t work now. And of course you have completely failed to address my refutation of the quasi scholarly bullshit you posted yesterday.

    And I have cited no theological arguments for my point of view because I need none:

    Christ made no pronouncements on human sexuality in the Gospels, and St Paul’s strictures on the subject have no provenance of any kind. You don’t need theology to see what is in front of your nose.

    Christ made no pronouncements about homosexuality or its physical sexual expression, and no matter how often gainsay that fact, or elide, or pretend that "he must have condemned homosexuality and its physical expression", the fact is that you can do no more than suppose what he thought - ie, you have faith in your belief that Christ condemned homosexuality.

    And what is the definition of faith? belief in the truth of something than cannot be proved.

    You are wrong, and shouting louder and louder that you are right will not alter that fact.

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  13. So all the Abrahamic faiths have got it wrong and homosexual practices are not sinful?

    Pope Francis is wrong not to recognise gay marriage and not to bless gay unions. The Christian churches are wrong to teach that homosexual acts are grave sin? Everyone wrong but you?

    Can't you hear yourself Detterling you arrogant prick?

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  14. Oh, dear, Gene, you've been at the Aldi Chianti again. I can well understand that, having been humiliated four times in as many weeks, you have no recourse but to lash out in all directions, bellowing your nonsense at the top of your voice and hoping that the noise you make will distract everyone from noticing that it is nonsense. This is simply ridiculous:

    So all the Abrahamic faiths have got it wrong and homosexual practices are not sinful? Pope Francis is wrong not to recognise gay marriage and not to bless gay unions. The Christian churches are wrong to teach that homosexual acts are grave sin?"

    For someone who claims to have a 2:1 in PPE, even if you did cheat your way through the whole of your degree, it is surprising that you never came across the fallacy of The Appeal to Authority, much less that of the Undistributed Middle, but let that pass.

    SOME members of some of the Abraham faiths proclaim that homosexual practices are sinful; Pope Francis is happy to bless gay couples in same-sex unions irrespective of the state of their sexual relationship [and if that is not endorsing homosexual practices, what the hell is it?]. SOME ordained members of the Christian churches teach that homosexual acts are grave sin.

    You make two nonsensical claims: one, that the Abrahamic faiths speak with one voice on the matter of sexuality, and two, that I claim that everyone who does not share my attitudes is wrong.

    I have never done that, and I never will: all that I expect is that I am left to live my own life in the light of my faith in the expectation that I will one day have to account for how I lived it to God, and not to two-faced, lying, dirty minded, nasty bigots like you.

    What I won't have is bigoted bastards like you telling me what I must believe and how to live out my Christian faith.
    What I won't have is bombastic bullies like you telling me that Christ condemned homosexuality when he didn't.
    What I won't have is two-faced adulterous bell-ends like you, who has cheerfully disregarded the teachings of the Catholic Church on artificial contraception all your life, laying down the law about how everyone else should lead their lives according to their God given sexualities.

    FACT ONE: you claimed that Christ condemned homosexuality.
    FACT TWO: he didn't mention homosexuality anywhere in the Gospels.
    FACT THREE: what individual Christians decide to believe about Christ's attitude to homosexuality is a matter of individual faith, morality and conscience.

    If you wish to believe that, had Christ ever spoken on the subject of homosexuality, then he would have condemned it as an abomination, then no-one, least of all me, is going to stop you. But I will not be bullied into agreeing with you and for as long as you go on trying to do that, then I will go on proving the untruth of your original assertion we can know the mind of Christ on matters of which he never spoke.

    Likewise, you are free to believe that St Paul spoke in all sexual matters for Christ if you wish, just as I am free to believe that his teachings on the matter have no Christian provenance whatsoever.

    No, Gene, simple rebuttal hasn’t worked for you in any of your recent humiliations and it won’t work now. And of course you have completely failed to address my refutation of the quasi scholarly bullshit you posted yesterday.

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  15. "SOME members of some of the Abraham faiths proclaim that homosexual practices are sinful;"

    No. All of the Abrahamic faiths proclaim homosexual practices sinful and all members of those faiths ipso facto accept that homosexual practices are sinful.

    "Pope Francis is happy to bless gay couples in same-sex unions"

    No. Pope Francis has made it very clear that gay unions cannot be blessed. He has said that God cannot bless sin. Individuals can be blessed - any individuals.

    "SOME ordained members of the Christian churches teach that homosexual acts are grave sin."


    No. If homosexual acts are proclaimed sinful by Christian churches then ordained ministers in those churches must teach that these acts are gravely sinful. For example, name me an ordained minister in the Catholic Church who teaches otherwise.


    Stuffed again Detterling. You never learn that tangling with Gene ends in defeat and humiliation for you.

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